Goals Are Overrated | Heather Burright | The Sean Trace Show

In this episode of The Sean Trace Show, I sit down with Heather Burright, founder of Skillmasters Market, to talk about why real behavior change is so much harder than simply knowing what we should do. Heather breaks down the difference between information and action, and we get into why training, personal growth, habits, and even big life changes only work when they are built around systems, motivation, environment, and support.

What I loved about this conversation is how practical it got. We talked about everything from trying to become a morning person, to building better routines, to helping my daughter read more by changing her environment, to why community makes change easier. Heather also shares why people often quit too soon, why investing in yourself is always worth it, and why we are all more capable of creating change than we sometimes believe.

This episode is a reminder that growth does not happen just because we want it. It happens when we create the right systems, surround ourselves with the right people, and take small steps consistently.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, you mentioned James Clear before, author of Atomic Habits. Um, he's a behavior change expert, obviously, an author. Um, he says something to the effect of you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And so I think that's a lot of times what happens, right? We set goals without thinking about anything else. And so even like the 5 a.m. thing, right? Setting what are the systems that need to be in place if I want to get up at 5 a.m., well, I need to go to bed earlier. I need to probably have my coffee prepped, right? Like there are things, there are systems I can put in place to make that uh more likely to happen. And so I like to kind of think through some of the questions around like how we know when when to do the thing, whatever it is, the thing that we want to change, how will we know when to do it? What's gonna prompt us to do it? So my alarm for taking my iron, right? I set an alarm on my phone, it reminds me to take my iron. There's a prompt there. Um, what's gonna keep us motivated? Because again, five years of the alarm goes off, I'm not so motivated. So, what is it that will keep us motivated to do the thing? So kind of thinking through not just the goal or the change itself, but what are the systems, what are the things around us that we need to change in order to make that uh make that happen? Um, it's something I think a lot about, not just individually, but also as a learning designer, um, you know, I want to create the actual training in a way that creates behavior change, but I also have to create some sort of support after that training ends because the people who go through the training that I create, they're headed back into the same system that they were in before. And so for me, as I'm creating training, I'm also thinking about that system and how are we setting them up for success.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Welcome everybody back to the Sean Trey Show. I have an awesome guest with me today. Uh, would you like to tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I'm Heather Burrite. Um, I am the founder of Skillmasters Market. And um I like to say I combine my heart for people uh with instructional design experience and individual and organizational change um principles and uh do that for nonprofits and associations so that they have training that helps move their mission forward by actually creating behavior change for the people that they need to train. Um I also uh have a private membership community for nonprofit trading employees as well, um, and a podcast of my own. So it's fun to be on the other side today.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

That's awesome. Um, you know, it's cool to hear about people and see people that are doing uh cool things and using platforms to create change because you know it's like the other day I was talking to a friend and we were talking about some of the stuff that's not going right in the world. And their comment was, it's a big world. What can I do? And I was like, actually, so much. And it's one of the things too, because people say they want change, but they end up doing the same things over and over and don't see how that they can actually have an effect on their own life, have an effect on the world, and have an effect just on everything around them. Why do you think people are resistant to empowering themselves or what can they do to empower themselves?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Yeah, you know, uh change is complex. I think we see this um when we think about the number of people who set New Year's resolutions and never follow through. Um, so I actually kind of want to start with an example of how even a simple change can feel so complex. Um, so in 2023, it's been a few years now, I went to my primary care physician for my annual checkup. And she did blood work as they do and told me that everything was normal. So I didn't make any change, right? I wasn't aware there was a problem, so I made no changes. And then later in the year I saw a specialist who looked at that same blood work and said that my iron levels were just a little bit low and I should consider taking iron at least every other day. Um, and so there was a cue there, right? Something's a little off. I should probably make a change. So I bought iron, right? I left the doctor's office, ordered some iron, but I wasn't super motivated to take it because she said my iron levels were only a little low, right? It wasn't this sense of urgency. So then, so later in the year I saw another doctor who looked again at that same blood work and said my iron levels were so low that she wanted to start me on an IV. And there are a few things I dislike in this world more than needles. And so that was a huge motivator for me, right? Now I know there's an issue. Um, I have a uh motivation to um make the change, and I have the ability to make the change because I now own the iron as well. So I started taking my iron, right? But even then I had to set an alarm on my phone to remind me to take it every night. And so taking iron, right, is a very simple change, simple thing that has to happen, but it required a prompt, it required motivation, a new routine, and a reward, uh, which right is no IV and better iron levels. All of those things had to exist for me to actually make that change. And I mean, that one's a pretty simple one, right? So most of us say, oh, I want to do X, I want to start working out, I want to eat healthier, I want to floss daily, but we don't think about the actual required components for making a change.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

The right there's so much there. I love that because it's like, I remember when I was a kid and I started learning to ride a bicycle. And you sit there and you're like, Well, I what I gotta do, you know, I want, I see this thing I want, but there's this big knowledge gap and skill gap a lot of times between where I'm at and where I want to be. And I mean, it was interesting because my mom padded me up, pointing me down a hill, and said, Okay, just practice steering this time. I practiced steering. We got halfway down the hill, I tumbled, and I was okay because it was on the grass lawn. We were outside, it was okay. And I was padded up. Yeah. And then the next time she's like, All right, we kind of got steering down. Let's try to work on pedaling. And we started working on pedaling and braking. And it was like one of the things that that was able to happen was it was one uh one thing at a time. And if I I I broke it down and I was able to get to that goal, but like, I mean, when we're talking about kids, um, it's easier, you know. All right, well, yeah, you're a kid, you're doing some things like that. But when we're an adult, I want to open my own company. Oh, oh, wow. Or I want to do this other big goal that I have. It can seem those things can seem daunting because we don't necessarily have that parental figure sitting over the top of us. You know, some people can find a great mentor, but not everyone can, you know, and so I think that it's interesting that the principles though, of breaking things down to one little step at a time still apply. They still work. You just have to figure out what those steps are, you know. So I wanted to ask you this though. When I think about it, there's people will will look at those things that they want to accomplish and and what's the difference between knowing something that you want to do and actually living it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah. I mean, if you think about your bike example, right? Like you kind of at a high level know how the bike works, but that doesn't mean you can ride a bike, right? You know that you're supposed to sit on the seat, you know you're supposed to move the pedals, you know, you know you're gonna hold onto the handlebars, but knowing that and doing that are very different things. So for me, the difference is everything when I think about it. The difference between knowing and doing is everything. Um, I know if I don't want my laundry to pile up, I need to do it every single day. I know that. But I still find myself every few days questioning how many people live in my household because the laundry has piled so high, right? I know I need to do it, but knowing and doing are different things. So I I create training for a living. I said that a little bit in the in my intro, but for me, the goal of training is always behavior change. And historically in training, right, we have focused on transferring information in training. And so it becomes a knowledge dump. There is someone who knows something at the front of the room and they are just telling you everything that you need to know. But that doesn't actually work when it comes to behavior change. Um, so I've learned more about behavior change principles over the last several years as a way to help design learning more effectively so that we're thinking again, the difference between knowledge and behavior change, the knowledge and doing, um, we're tapping into that from a training perspective as well. So, yeah, this stuff, it lights me up because there is a big difference between knowing and doing.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

I love that. There is a big difference between knowing and doing. You know, I I see earlier today, uh, my nephew and my daughter went to uh the gym with me. And we all went to we we all trained Thai boxing together. It's super fun, super cool thing that we get to do as a family. Now, there was a challenge because uh the last class my nephew started teasing one of the older kids, much bigger, much, much bigger, and that teasing joking didn't go well. I turn around and the kids beaten up on my nephew pretty bad, so I walk over and I'm like, hey guys, stop this. But today, my nephew knew what to do, but he still did the wrong thing. You know, it's like he knew this, but he still was like he couldn't still help himself. And I think that one of the interesting things too is like we have to put systems into place because we often know what we want, but then enacting it is really tough. That's why I love the atomic habits, you know, and uh the the approach of like putting those things out there to like, you know, I I love habit stacking. That's something that's great for me. Like, I drive my daughter to school, let's go to the gym. You know, it's something because I have a hard time throughout the rest of the day. Work catches up with me, my business gets busy, and I have a hard time getting there. But if I can have it stack, it's just like it makes it much easier. So I I don't know if what's something that you're working on changing right now for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah. Um I I give I've given this example before. Um, and it I it always cracks me out because it's one that I have never been able to solve. So um I want so badly to be a morning person. I want that like good morning routine, you know. I want to have my coffee when it's still quiet in my house. I have three kids and a dog, so it is not always quiet in my house. I want that coffee in the quiet. I want to be able to, you know, take my dog for a walk or whatever that looks like. I want time to just kind of reflect and think and plan. I just I want that quiet, easy morning. And it sounds so nice when I sit down at my desk in the middle of the day, right? It sounds so nice when I'm cleaning up after lunch. But when that alarm goes off at 5 a.m., it feels less nice, right? It feels hard. It's so hard. And I don't want to be a morning person anymore. And so it's one that I've continued to dissect. Like, why have I not made this change? Um, I have the cue, right? My morning alarm goes off. That's my cue to get up, but my motivation is low when I hear that alarm. And so instead of getting up, I hit the snooze button and my behavior goes unchanged. And it sounds like this is sounding very familiar to you as well. This one has been so hard for me.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

I I am such a night person, and I've always been like, I listen to all of these motivational speakers, like, you know, they're like, shut up and wake up at the break of dawn. You get up and have those moments of quiet and do your meditation, do your workout in the first 20 minutes. And I'm just like, I'm slapping my um, I'm slapping the alarm all the way till around six. And I'm like, even though I'm gonna wake up at six to take my daughter to school, I'm just like 620? Can we stretch it a little bit? It's hard for me, but you know, I think that one of the things I had to do um was realize that I was able to be productive in another way. And it was interesting that when I was able to identify, I had to adapt because I realized that the most productive time for me has become nights. And it wasn't optimal, but it was practical. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, I mean, I am definitely uh still a work in progress for the morning person. I do get up early. Um, I get up, I'm usually moving by six, um, but I would like to be up a little bit earlier than that. And one thing I've been thinking about is well, two things I've been thinking about is um one is my identity, right? I don't identify as a morning person. Right. I say I want to be a morning person, not I am a morning person. So I don't identify that way. And I think that impacts my motivation when that alarm goes off. So I've been thinking through that one a little bit. And then the other one is um what it means to decide. Like I decide that I will get up at 5 a.m. So the word to the word decide um means that you have literally cut off every other option. And I think I have not decided that I'm a morning person. I have not decided that I'm going to get up at 5 a.m. Because if I have decided that, not getting up is not an option.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

And so those are two things that I'm kind of playing with. Like, we'll figure out, we'll see if I get there or how long it takes me to get there. But I'm still a work in progress and it's hard. Change is hard. So I think even as we're talking through behavior change principles, and and yes, we have the capacity to change, we have the ability to change, um, doesn't mean it's easy.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

I love that you're pointing that out because one of the things too is like it's a journey. I started with martial arts and a long time ago, and I hear about like one of the people who inspires me is like Tom Hardy. And there's these people that they've got a busy life, but they just start showing up and finding ways to show up. And if you can start moving incrementally, getting incrementally better too. And that was one of the things that I found out for myself. I am actually getting up earlier these days, but one of the things that I had to do was to work with myself incrementally, not say, all right, we're gonna do five o'clock. I went from six down to five fifty-five, you know, and it was like actually, if I was able to work with myself and create steps, it was making actually much more achievable. But like, I wanted to ask you this because have you ever had to change something about yourself that was really hard? And like besides like something that you did, uh and what did that look like? What's another is there anything other in the process that you've done?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Oh, something else that I've changed that was really hard, other than taking iron, which was hard. It doesn't sound hard, but it was hard, and trying to become a mooring person. Um, yeah, I'm trying to think of like other good examples that people would be able to relate to. Changing things. I mean, I I became a business owner. I think that what that is uh also always a work in progress, right? Um, but that's anytime you're dealing with um uncertainty, right? Um, it becomes hard. We don't like uncertainty. And so uh that has definitely been uh a change that I've had to to work through. Um becoming a parent, right? That's a huge change. And while there's a lot of uh like benefit, a lot of value, um, I I am changed in lots of great ways because of it. Um it's still hard to be a parent sometimes. Um so yeah, I think we all do this, we all go through change and um yeah, it's just figuring out how to make it work for us and how to learn from it and grow from it and commit to it.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I love that. Well, you know, I it's interesting too, because a lot of people can start making those changes, but they fall back into old habits even when we know they're not good for us. You know, I are there anything practical things that you think people can do to kind of prevent from sliding back into old habits?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah. Yeah, you know, um, you mentioned James Clear before, author of Atomic Habits. Um, he's a behavior change expert, obviously, an author. Um, he says something to the effect of you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And so I think that's a lot of times what happens, right? We set goals without thinking about anything else. And so even like the 5 a.m. thing, right? Setting what are the systems that need to be in place if I want to get up at 5 a.m.? Well, I need to go to bed earlier. I need to probably have my coffee prepped, right? Like there are things, there are systems I can put in place to make that uh more likely to happen. And so I like to kind of think through some of the questions around like how we know when when to do the thing, whatever it is, the thing that we want to change. How will we know when to do it? What's gonna prompt us to do it? So my alarm for taking my iron, right? I set an alarm on my phone, it reminds me to take my iron. There's a prompt there. Um, what's gonna keep us motivated? Because again, five eight of the alarm goes off. I'm not so motivated. So, what is it that will keep us motivated to do the thing? So kind of thinking through not just the goal or the change itself, but what are the systems, what are the things around us that we need to change in order to make that uh make that happen? Um, it's something I think a lot about, not just individually, but also as a learning designer, um, you know, I want to create the actual training in a way that creates behavior change, but I also have to create some sort of support after that training ends, because the people who go through the training that I create, they're headed back into the same system that they were in before. And so for me, as I'm creating training, I'm also thinking about that system and how are we setting them up for success? What they need to know in the moment and how can we get that to them? Um, what how what uh in their environment needs to shift, whether that's a process, whether that's preparing their supervisor to help them make that change, right? So really thinking through um not just how the change itself happens, but how are we creating the right environment for that change to thrive?

SPEAKER_00 18:37

I love that. I love one of the things that we this week started to really focus on for my daughter was um she didn't get a lot of it, but we we pulled way back on screen time because we want her to be reading more. And one of the best ways to do that was to make it so that the environment was conducive to reading. And the easiest way to do that was to really limit the amount of devices or tablets or whatever that were around and had she had access to. So I've got a camera safe that I put my cameras in, and I walked up the tablet, and she's been reading like crazy, and it was a huge win because the environment for reading needed to be created. And I think that that happens in a lot of different places that we need to create that environment in our own lives. You know, so you want to go to the gym, you want to get in shape. Well, maybe that means getting some new, you know, sports shoes. Maybe it means getting a membership at that gym, maybe it means that you're joining a group of people that do the same type of thing that you want to be doing, you know, whether that be pickleball or something else, you know, it it's that that creating that space that you feel like uh you're gonna be supported in that goal. But I wanted to ask you this, because if someone feels stuck in life right now, where should they actually start and make change?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, I would say first, it's it is totally normal to feel stuck sometimes. Um so I think we normalize that. But I would say some pieces of advice, evaluate what you want and why. Um, be specific about your goals. General goals are really goals are really hard to achieve. So be specific, make it small, make it tiny. Um, intentionally plan your systems, right? Thinking about your environment, that kind of thing. Um, but honestly, I would also start reading up on behavior change. There's a lot of really good information out there. There are some really good books that break it down so simply. Atomic habits and habits is one of them that's just so simple and clear and easy to understand. Um, BJ Fogg's Tiny Habits is another good one. Um, and that will start to change the way you think about behavior change. So I think those are some initial things. But one other kind of piece, if I can, and you mentioned this, is um ad community. Whatever, whatever that looks like, it's so hard to make change in a silo. And a lot of times we'll say, Oh, we want to start doing this, but we're saying it to ourselves and we're not, we're not voicing it to anyone else. Um, I want to, you know, write a book, I want to go to the gym, whatever it is, we're not necessarily telling anybody else. And so then we're trying to make that change in a silo. And I think we do it as a way of protecting ourselves. Like we don't want to fail. And then we've told all these people, like, hey, I'm gonna lose 20 pounds and then, you know, or I'm gonna stop drinking, and then you're posting pictures drinking. Like, you don't want that, you don't want to feel like a failure. And so we don't tell people as a way of protecting ourselves when in reality, change is really hard in a silo. And if we can have people around us who can encourage us and hold us accountable and help us sustain that change over time, we're more effective. Um, it's why for me personally, I created the a community for nonprofit training professionals. I mentioned it in my intro. That I have a private community. It's called the Nonprofit LD Collective, but I really wanted a place to focus on learning and in learning and development. We focus a lot on everybody else's learning and development, right? And so I wanted a place where they could come and focus on their own learning and growth. And I knew how important the community piece of that would be and is. So that's something I don't think I could say enough. And you certainly don't have to go tell the whole world that you're trying to make a change, but find the people that you can trust who will encourage you, who will hold you accountable and help you as you make that change because it is hard and it's much easier with people.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

I love that. And I agree. I think some of the most productive times in my life have been when I've been in groups or surrounded by people that are also in line with creating what I want to create. And it's so motivational. Like they are pulling you forward. They are there. And when you have those days that you don't want to wake up at five, that phone rings and they're like, hey, where are you at? And they help keep you accountable. And I think that's something that's so huge. And I think that's awesome that you're doing it because you know you're creating the space where people can thrive. And I think that that's so awesome. I that's one of my challenges with uh adulthood is that we leave school, and school was a great place where people could support you on different goals. You had a mentor and the teacher. I wish that we had that mindset that continued throughout our life. You know, whether it might be there are our groups and mentorship groups that you have, a senior person and then you have a community. I mean, and I think you can find that, but it the fact that it just isn't as readily available is kind of sad to me. But I wanted to ask you this like, what do most most people get wrong about this growth stuff?

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah. I mean, other than quitting too soon, I think that I think that's something that we all do, right? We quit when it starts to get hard. Um, and it's usually just like hanging on a little bit longer is when you'll actually start to see the momentum. Um, so I think people quit too soon. But um, I have a few kind of beliefs here around personal growth. And we've talked about a couple of these already, but just to kind of emphasize and highlight them. Um, one is that community is better than isolation. So, to your point, right? Having people around you, having a mentor, being in a group of people working towards the same goals. Um, community is better than isolation. Um, and I think people sometimes get that wrong thinking that they need to do it on their own, right? Um, one is that investing in in yourself is always worth it. And I think again, this is one that we sometimes struggle with, especially depending on your money mindset or your time mindset, right? It's like, well, I don't have time for that, or I don't have money for that, or I don't, you know, I don't have the resources for that. But I have never regretted investing in myself. Um, and so if it's the midday walk, that's an investment in myself. If it's a gym membership, that's an investment in myself. If it's a coaching program, that's an investment in myself. And I have never, ever, ever regretted investing in myself. It's always worth it. So I think that's another thing that sometimes people um get wrong. They think, you know, I don't, I don't want to spend my time or resources that way, or I can't prioritize my time and resources that way. And um, it's always worth it. Um, another is that, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

No, I 100% agree. That's what I was gonna say. I completely agree with you on that. It's always worth it. Investing in yourself is always worth it. I've never had a ch a time in my life where when I invested in myself, it wasn't something that turned out really well.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah. Yep, absolutely. And the reason is not because of that program or that, you know, gym membership or that thing. It's because of you. You are the common denominator, right? And when you're investing, you're investing in you. And so I think that is a huge piece of it. Um, another kind of belief that I have here is that um we have to remain committed to learning and growth. Um, I mentioned to decide, right, means to cut off everything else. And so there's a commitment piece of this that I think um sometimes when we think about a change, we're not all in, right? We want it to happen, but we're not all in on it. And so remaining committed to that process, um, knowing that it might be uncomfortable at times because learning and growth is not always easy. Um, I think there's a a commitment there, right? That still has to exist. Um, and then the last thing I would say here is like um what people get wrong, right? I kind of kind of talking about it in the positive, but um one of those things that that I believe is that I'm capable of creating change. And I think sometimes we don't remember that we have the ability to create change. We don't feel like we have autonomy and that we can create change, but but I know I'm capable of creating change. I've seen it in my own life, I've seen it in the lives of others through my client work, creating training, through the nonprofit LD Collective, through my podcast, Learning for Good, right? Like I know I'm capable of creating change. And so I have to remind myself of that and and just keep that firm in mind. And I think that's another thing that it's easy to feel like things are out of your control. There's not something that I can do, and there is absolutely always something that you can do, something that you can change, something that you can impact. Um, and so those are some of the beliefs that I have that I think definitely translate to other people as well. And again, I kind of talked about them in the positive, but I think we often feel the opposite side of that.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

I 100% agree. And I think that one of the things too is like when people are doing things that are keeping them stuck. I think one of my favorite things sayings is you don't know what you don't know. And I think sometimes people are unaware. And this is again why a community or mentor can be really helpful because sometimes you're doing something to sabotage yourself that you have no idea is hurting you. And you know, and I think that like you might think it's just this little thing, you know. I God I had food allergies for many years that for some reason just kind of resolved themselves. It's amazing, it's kind of awesome. I've been able to eat like a lot of different foods of late, and it's made me very happy because I had I had 12 years where I could eat beans, rice, and vegetables, and that was it. That was the extent of my diet, and it was tough, very tough, especially living in a country like Vietnam where the food is phenomenal. And you know, one of the things that as I started being able to eat more food, I uh had this wonderful French bread up the street. I made these little baguettes, and I ate the baguette and I had some fruit, and then I ate more baguettes and I had more fruit, and it was delicious, and I just kept buying more baguettes and more fruit, and every morning I'd have some baguettes, and I started with one baguette. I was like, wow, this is amazing. I'm gonna have some more. Then suddenly I was eating five baguettes and some fruit every morning. That's a lot of carbs. I did not know. And it was uh, and one of my workers looked at me and they're like, Mr. Sean, I was like, Yes, they're like, You're getting fat. And I'm like, I'm not fat, I'm big boned. And I was like, hold on, hold on. And I recognized I wasn't aware until someone was in a very playful and nice way called me out for saying, Hey, are you aware of what you're doing to yourself right now? Are you aware of what you're you're telling me you want to be in a healthy place, you want to, you know, live in a healthy lifestyle, but you're eating five like baguettes a day. That's like that's a lot of carbs, and then you have all that as well at the same time. It's like a sugar bomb. And it was interesting because they were able to help me get perspective, and then I did some research and I was like, you know, I know about health, I just don't know why. I just it didn't click that I was just overloading my carbs. But my point being is like I studied wellness and all these other things, and it's interesting because sometimes we just don't know what we don't know, you know. And I want to ask you another thing too, because why does real change feel uncomfortable for some people even when it's good for us? I feel like eating less of those baguettes was actually really good for me, but it was hard to stop, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

It is hard. Change is hard. Um, I think uh you had built a new routine, right, around your baguettes. And so that you had to change a routine. That change is hard. Um, I think we kind of fall back into um is it homeostasis? Is that the word that I'm looking for? Like um, you know, our brain is designed to protect us, and when things feel hard, we want to stop because we want to play it safe. We we don't want to enter into a place where we feel uncertain, uncomfortable. Like our brain doesn't necessarily differentiate between types of threats. And so, like of you know, bear being in front of us and uh change, like not eating a baguette, they kind of start to feel the same to our brain at some point. Um, and it it just wants to to keep us in a safe place, a safe environment. And that a lot of times means no change, um, even if what we're doing is actually more harmful than making the change. Um, so yeah, I think it's hard, it's uncomfortable, um, even when it's good for us, and uh it's kind of a brain game in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Right? It really is a brain game, and that's why I love when people can gamify things. Can you gamify a way to you know create uh structure um and ways to keep things moving forward in in a good way, you know, because if you can gamify it, it just makes it more fun, you know. But I want to ask you this because like how do you know if you're actually busy? Because you know, this is like with my podcast. I I make a lot of episodes, but I'm like, I have to sit there and go, well, are the numbers going up? Am I getting more, you know, engagement? Am I getting more people kind of wanting to come on? Because those are the things that you have to look at. What are the metrics of growth versus you know, just being that in that treadmill? But I mean, sometimes there is great to be in the treadmill, you're getting in shape. So I don't know, I don't want to judge, you know, but you know, how do you know you're actually making change in your life?

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah. Uh it's a great question. And I'm curious your answer to this one as well. I for me as a learning designer, right? That's kind of what I focus on full-time in my job. And so I am looking for outcomes when I'm in that learning designer mode. And I think that translates in many ways uh to the individual. Um, you know, as a learning designer, I need to measure what's working and what isn't working so that I one can prove the value of the training or adapt to make sure that the value is there. But I can't do that if I don't have some outcome data to look at. Um, I think we can do the same thing in our own lives as far as um, you know, the data might be different, but we have to know what we're looking for, what we're trying to change, what success looks like. And if we can define those things, then we can start to look for indicators that those things are happening. Um, you know, I think a lot of times there are some that are easy, like if I want to lose weight or whatever, I want to lose 10 pounds, whatever it is. Like that's kind of an easy metric. It's also kind of a superficial metric in a lot of ways, um, because it doesn't necessarily measure your overall health. And so um really thinking through what is success? Is success just losing those 10 pounds, or is success some other measure of health? And if so, what is that? Is it being able to get on and off the floor and play with your kids? Is it to be able to take your dog for a walk without getting winded? Is it, you know, some other uh medical metric that you're looking at? And if we can define what success is, we can we can measure it, but we really have to start there.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yeah, I love that as well. It really is what success looks like for you, you know. I go to the Muay Thai gym and I do a lot of cardio. I do some rowing, I do treadmill, I do about five rounds on the heavy bag, and I stretch, and that's success for me. It's good to show up, it's good to get that training in. I am not training for fights, I am not training to be like uh I started training, I was getting one of the person the coaches there to train me, and I was like, dude, this is not what I'm looking for. I'm not looking to be a fighter. I just want to stay in shape. I just want to keep my cardio up and I want to be there when my daughter's training. And that was where I was able to create that that balance. But I had to redefine what success in that scenario looked like for me, you know? And it's one trust, it's interesting because I think a lot of people get caught up in what other people believe or think they should be doing, you know. Um, you know, and and I want to ask you this too, because what's one belief that people hold on to that quietly holds them back? Can you think of anything that might be a good one?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah, I think sometimes, oh, I probably can come up with more than one. I think sometimes we feel like we've tried it all before and it didn't work, right? Um, so there's a little bit of a mental block. Well, I've tried to become a gym person before and it didn't work. I've tried to start flossing my teeth every day and I didn't stick with it. I've tried this, I've tried that. And so um there is this belief that we've tried it all before and it didn't work. Um, but I think that that sometimes comes down to a lack of um sense of autonomy, I guess, for like we feel like there are things outside of our control when really we have a lot more control than we realize. Yeah. Um, you know, there is almost always a choice. Um, you might not like either option, but there is almost always a choice. And um, if we can kind of hold on to that, I think that can help move us forward a little at a time.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I love that. One of the things that I I try to talk to people about is, you know, I I love the dichotomy of control. Like there is always something that you can do to change your situation. It might not always be easy, might not always be fun, but there's definitely something that you can do. And, you know, you just have to figure out what that thing is that you can be doing and embrace it and make those changes. Like, what was it? I'm reading this book called The One Thing. And it's like essentially every single person has one thing that would move the needle for you that day. And so you just have to figure out what is that one thing for yourself, and once you do, um, you know, really lean in on that. And again, though, that's the journey is figuring out what that one thing is. I I wanted to ask you this because if you could give yourself one piece of advice, your younger self, one piece of some advice with about becoming a better person, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Okay, my younger self. You don't think I am my younger self? I hope I hope I answer this question.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I am old, like a five-year-old version, 10-year-old version of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

I am not extremely, extremely young. So um I can definitely answer this question. Um, no, I think um be a good friend and find good friends. Um, you know who you hang out with makes a big difference and who you become. Um, and it wasn't just like the old people in our lives when we were kids who were another age, right? But it wasn't just the old people in our lives when we were kids like harping on us about this, like it was actually solid advice. Um, they say, you know, if you hang around nine smokers, you'll be the tenth. Um there's data that says divorce rate divorce rates increase if you have a bunch of friends who are divorced. Um, same with obesity, right? Um, and so who you are around makes a huge difference. So find, you know, choose choose your friends wisely, find good friends, but then be a good friend to them too.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

I love that. I love that. Where can people go to learn more about what you who you are and what you do?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so LinkedIn is a great place to find me. I'm active on LinkedIn, so you can learn more about what I do there, get connected with me there. Uh, if you're looking just for more content as far as um how to create behavior change and what that looks like from a learning perspective, my podcast learning perspective is gonna be great.