Fatherhood Gets Lonely | Shannon Carpenter | The Sean Trace Show

In this episode, I sit down with Shannon Carpenter, author of The Ultimate Stay-at-Home Dad, for a real conversation about fatherhood, male loneliness, modern masculinity, friendship, burnout, and what dads actually need. 

We talk about why so many men can be surrounded by family, work, and responsibility but still feel deeply alone. Shannon shares why adult male friendship is so hard to build, why men often struggle to open up, and how having a safe person or group can help lighten the burden of stress and anxiety. We also get into what kids need most from their dads, and Shannon’s answer is simple but powerful: consistency. 

This conversation is about showing up, being present, building community, and understanding that men do not have to carry everything alone.

What do you think is harder for men today: making real friends, talking about stress, or being fully present as a dad?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The victory is just making it through the next day. Because I think men are like you just said it yourself. You have all these responsibilities, all these burdens on top of you. You know, you have work, you have home, you have house. Um, and they're so specific to us that it is just a punch in the face day after day after day after day, right? And I think honestly, right now, specifically, men just get tired. You just get tired. You want you ask men what they want when you really talk about them. And one of the first things they'll say is peace. Right? They want peace. They want peace in their head and they want peace in their life, right? And I've taken that to mean even on my own self, is I just want a moment where I can sit and exist without expectation and be there. So I think when we're trying to get men to men's groups, you know, and and how we do that, I think that's one of the unfortunate things we have to overcome is they have to have space in their life. And that's a whole long conversation of how that happens. But my other advice with people who create these groups, people can go to, keep doing it. You would be amazed of the people you'll meet on the way. I wrote I ran a dad's group for years and years, and thousands of people come through it. And I've met men and people that I would never have met any other way. Um, and I I've raised kids with five other dads, four other dads. We've been together for 20 years. Like a marriage, right? We've been together for 20 years and raised 16 kids together. And that came from opening myself up and actually taking that first step. It takes a little while to get there. We're tired. We're all tired, brother. We all tired.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Welcome everybody back to the Sean Trey Show. I've got an awesome guest with me today. Would you like to tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Uh yeah, thanks for having me, Sean. Uh my name is Shannon Carpenter. I'm a writer and author in all the good things, uh, writing primarily about fatherhood and the only forms that I can. Uh, I'm the author of the Ultimate Stay at Home Dad. Uh that has been out for a bit now. Um, it's the whole job is to help fathers care for their children um in a way that they can understand. And talking to them as secondary people or secondary parents, they're as primary parents.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

That's what I do. Well, man, there's so much to unpack there. And like one of the things that I got married uh 10 plus years ago and loved my wife, and I, you know, I spent a lot of time with her and her family. I got my brother. One of the things I noticed is after I got married and started my company, I have a lot less friends. Yeah. And like my friend group just shrank and shrank and shrank. And I'm not gonna lie, look, one of the things that you were writing about that resonated with me was loneliness. And I I'm surrounded by people all day, but at the same time, I feel really lonely. And I know there's a lot of guys out there. And I I want to ask you this like, why do you think so many men, I want to say people in general, but feel lonely right now, even when they have families, jobs, and responsibilities, man? Why are people feeling so lonely?

SPEAKER_01 3:21

You know, so yeah, I've written a lot about this question. And it's it's weird. You can be a man and a father in your own marriage and still feel lonely, right? So men, it is the need for connection, true connection, right? To be seen, to be heard, to be understood without saying the uh a single word, right? As we get older, we we tend to shut down more emotionally, and we don't open ourselves up for that connection. It becomes harder. By the age of 17, you know, men have you had the uh their vulnerabilities used against them in some way, either intentionally or not intentionally. And so by the age of 17, you start learning that you know, you kind of maybe I shouldn't put myself out there, which is a mistake, but it's also you know uh a thing that we've learned, you know. Yeah um and I think what you said was interesting, we're surrounded by people, but it there can still be loneliness there, and that's that's the truth, man. You can be in a sea of people if you're not seen for who you are, might as well be alone. I mean, it's the same thing. So, with male loneliness in all its forms, that's the hard part as you get older is making those friends that are more than surface level friends. And as an adult, that is hard as a man.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

That is really hard. There was this one of my favorite movies, I love this movie, is The Town. Uh, Jeremy Renner, Ben Affleck, and there's a scene in there like where Ben Affleck is like, I need you to go with me. Uh, you can't ask any questions, you can't tell anyone, people are gonna get hurt, but uh just are you down? And the friend's like, let's do it. You know? Not saying that we should all be going out and doing stuff like that, but that type of person, I've got two or three people in my life that if I called them up right now and said, Hey, I need your help, they would be like, I'll be there in you know 24 hours. I'll be there because I live on the other side of the world, but I have people that would just, it's not okay, let me see if I can pull that off. They're just like, I'll be there, you know? You know, people like that are rare. And that's the level of friendship I'm talking about, yeah? Right? When I was younger, I had more people. And it was like the challenge is is like life pulls us in all these different directions. And like, I would love to have that again. And maybe we're not gonna go out and do and get into trouble like they do in the town. I mean, those guys get that movie doesn't end in a happy way. I won't give away everything, but yeah. But I want to ask you this like, what are some simple ways dads and ordinary guys can actually build friendships again as adults? And I mean, honestly, I think that the whole push for a lot of older guys to go do jujitsu, that's like one of them. I think these guys want that community. And like you see all these dudes going out and doing martial arts as you know, older guys. I think that's part of it. But what are some other ways that people can build friendships again as adults?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

You know, there's there's a joke to tell. So a friend is a guy that will bail you out of jail, right? A best friend is the one sitting there next to you going, man, that was awesome. So that's the difference to me, right? That level of friendship. And you do lose those as you get older, though those close uh friendships. And you bring up jujitsu, right? Um, I think it's an awesome idea because men have lost some of those places that we normally have made connections in in the past because the world moves on, right? Um, religious institutions are down and less not as many men are going. Uh, you no longer work at the same job for 40 years. Um, maybe some of your civic organizations have changed. The world has changed. So the places that we used to go or that we've been through in the past to make those lifelong friendships and to maintain them, because that's hard, are just not there as much. So we have to find new ways to meet other dads, right? Meet other fathers, meet other men, right? And jujitsu and those type of activities that you have an interest in are the perfect place because it is again putting yourself out there willingly to meet other men and not be to be shy about it, right? Um finding those organizations or those activities, I think, is one of the bigger, bigger ways that we can do it, you know. But it can be tiring as you get older. You know, you have family, kids, job, car. Some days you just want to get home. And I I understand that, right? I've been through that. Um but you gotta pick yourself up, you gotta go. Having a close friend means the world. It changes your viewpoint on things. To me, it does. Um, and I think it's it's a possibility.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

You gotta take it, you gotta take the chance. One of the things that I remember growing up is reading in school about there were these rites of passage, there were these big events that men went through, you know? And, you know, you go back and look at the great generation. Like, what was that the moon TV show? Band of brothers, you know, talking about what these guys go through, you know, but it was these big events that these people had in their lives. And we are living in a time where there's a lot of safety. And I've I I love that there's safety. I love that there is the ability to, you know, safety, quotation marks, but like people are, I don't have to run out and fight bears right now. I I, you know, like I I've I've seen people who had to deal with bears, it's crazy stuff. But I I don't have to if I don't want to. But like one of the things is that there's a challenge to find these places where people can talk about this stuff. And you know, yeah, if a guy is stressed out, like how do you talk about that? You know, and like one of the things in the media, they show men's groups and it's always like aggressive, right? Instead of like fight club, you know, like these guys coming together. But honestly, I think most people want a place they can talk about stress, they can talk about the burnout, they can talk about feeling overwhelmed. And I want to ask you, like, why do you think so many men struggle to talk about, again, stress, uh burnout, and those feelings of overwhelm?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

You know, it's it's funny you bring that question up. I just interviewed uh another author um for a piece for CNN I'm working on. Uh, his name is Jordan, Jordan Ritter Kahn. He has a book coming out American then. I would highly recommend it to anybody to go get this book. And it's weird. I'm I'm someone else's book weather than mine, but this book is fantastic for men. Because it shows us who we really are and not who we portray ourselves in into the world, right? I think every man and I think every person has different versions of themselves. There's there's the man that we are in our own head, uh there's the man that we hope the world sees us as, and then there's the man we really are, right? And those those three different differences don't often line up. It's a question I've talked to a long time. And Jordan's book, American Men, goes into that. It follows four different men as as they go through their trials and tribulations and their own masculinity vulnerability, right? It men are usually portrayed as the hero in media, if you've noticed it. You're either the hero or the villain or the comedic relief. Right? Right? You're never just a guy that's trying to exist. And that's what the most of us are. Like you just said, I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to make it a tomorrow, man. I just need a little bit of help or I need a little bit of stuff. So, you know, to see that in the media in Jordan's book is a big deal. And I asked him the same question. It's like, oh, how do you open up? How do you share when you know you have all these feelings that are rooted in shame and fear? Because that's the that's how that's what we're taught. And not just by our fathers or our parents, but men who open up are not John Wayne. They're not tough, they're not strong, right? It is a societal pressure on. And Dr. Naobi Way has a better take on it, I think, than I've than I've read. Our entire life we're shown stories of King Arthur, of you know, John Wayne and Clean of Eastwood, and you know, the big red one and band of brothers. Those are the stories that we are seeing. And in those stories, the weirdest thing, she said, if you look at it, those men are allowed to protect the world but not be part of it. You know, that's what we're taught. We're taught to pull back, protect those around us, but not to open up in that world. So, knowing that, to answer your question a long roundabout way, I asked Jordan the same thing. How do you share without just not getting there? You need a place and you need a person that will not judge you when you talk, who will not recoil when you tell them things, um, who will not betray that level of confidence that you have. Those are kind of the most important three things. And he that's where he started at too. It takes time, right? And the funny thing is about this is when you tell and open up about those stresses that you have in your life and those anxieties, it lessens them, right? It actually makes them less. So it I've always called it sharing the burden of life, just living, sharing it with somebody who can understand that, who's not gonna freak out if you tell them some of your stresses, because your stresses aren't unique, they're not abnormal. We all have the same ones, basically, like for real. Whether you're dealing with alcoholism, for example, ton of guys have been there, right? It's not gonna shock anybody. And you can just go down the list that most of the anxieties and stresses that we have, you know, people will understand.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

It's hard, man. And it's hard because it's like there's a lot to process. Like there are so many components of what we have to process every single day. And you're right, like when you see all of these examples in the news and the movies and media, it it romanticizes all of this stuff, but it doesn't romanticize just waking up and going. The other week, I mean, used to get like, father, I would like to go out on my shield type of a thing. You know what? You know what I had to deal with last week? I didn't have any shield to lay down on. I had my daughter vomiting all over me as I was sitting there, her mom's traveling, and like I had to clean up projectile vomiting while also running my company, while also dealing with difficult clients, while also trying to negotiate contracts, all the while trying to have help my daughter keep food down for 48 hours. That's the type of stuff like I wanted to sit there and go, does anybody else? And I posted about that on LinkedIn. Like, I was like, all these people are posting. Like my mom called me and I was like, she's like, How are you doing? I didn't answer. And I took a photo of myself just covered in vomit, and I'm just like, this is where I'm at right now. And the next day I was like, I'm posting this on LinkedIn because everyone's always like, let's post our wins, let's talk about how we're crushing it. And I was like, this is my experience right now. I've been up since 2 a.m. It's now, you know, like 2 a.m. the next morning, and this is where I'm at right now. And my day kind of sucked. You know, that was like the thing that more people reached out to me about that than anything else. And people were like, I can I can empathize with that. And then, and yet I was like, dude, I love this response. I want to start a men's group and bring people together and crickets. And it was like, I think that people need help, they want help, but people have a really hard time stepping through that threshold into actually getting to a community, you know? And I I don't know if they there's fear about sharing, if there's or it's just a lack of a perceived lack of time, you know. But it's interesting, man.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

You know, your story does resonate. My kids are older now. I have a a 20-year-old, an 18-year-old, and a 13-year-old. But I have legit been where you're at with that vomit story. That's my first time I stayed home down for all years. So my first time my wife left, my daughter was uh she was 15 months old. She left. My daughter, my wife left to start a new job. We were moving there, right? She got sick, vomited all over me. Like it was like a game. And what I've learned from those moments, not only are they great stories that I get to tell over and over again and hold it over her head now as a 20-year-old college student. Um the victory is just making it through the next day. Because I think men are like you just said it yourself, you have all these responsibilities, all these burdens on top of you. You know, you have work, you have home, you have house. Um, and they're so specific to us that it is just a punch in the face day after day after day after day, right? And I think honestly, right now, specifically, men just get tired. You just get tired. You want you ask men what they want when you really talk about them. And one of the first things they'll say is peace, right? They want peace. They want peace in their head and they want peace in their life, right? And I've taken that to me, even with my own self, is I just want a moment where I can sit and exist without expectation um and be there. So I think when we're trying to get men to men's groups, you know, and and how we do that, I think that's one of the unfortunate things we have to overcome is they have to have space in their life. And that's a whole long conversation of how that happens. But my other advice with people who create these groups, people can go to, keep doing it. You would be amazed of the people you'll meet on the way. I wrote I ran a dad's group for years and years, and thousands of people come through it. And I've met men and people that I would never have met any other way. Um, and I I've raised kids with five other dads, four other dads. We've been together for 20 years. Like a marriage, right? We've been together for 20 years and raised 16 kids together. And that came from opening myself up and actually taking that first step. It takes a little while to get there. We're tired. We're all tired, brother. We all tired.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Well, I want to talk about that, about raising kids and fatherhood, man. Because you talk a lot about fatherhood and connection. Like, what do you think kids actually need most from their dads? Because that's something as a dad, mine's 10 now. But you know, I ask myself that every day. You know, what what can I do to be the best dad I can? And I think there's a lot of dads that are asking that.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

It's a good question people to ask themselves because I think we hold ourselves to a higher level in our own heads. It's one of the different parts of us, right? Um and we have this little person that looks to us. And I'll I'll just give you the easy, straight answer consistency for a father. Yeah. And what I mean by that is you may not be able to be there every day. You know, father's work, father's responsibility, same as mom's. But when you are there, be present. And be present for those moments that matter, right? It's not the quantity of time, it's the it's the level of quality you put into it, which can be very hard, you know, day to day to day, but you have to be there day to day, today, today, to day. It's the consistency that you'll put there for the rest of your life. And so for me, and I see it in my my sons and my daughter, you know, that they will tell stories of moments that were insignificant to me that I don't remember or didn't register. Right. But I was there, and they know I was there, and that gives them the strength later in life to know that I will be there. And I think for me at this stage in my life, that's that's my win. That was what the sacrifice always was there. My daughter knowing that I will be there the next moment, whatever that next moment is, right? So consistency, I think, is one of the harder things to get to, but I think it's one of the most important things as a father.