Work Is Performance | Jeroen Kraaijenbrink | The Sean Trace Show

I sat down with strategy and culture expert Jeroen Kraaijenbrink to ask the question that's been on my mind for years: why do so many leaders pretend everything is fine when it's clearly not? 

Jeroen calls it the ostrich effect, and he breaks down why organizations have quietly made dishonesty the rational choice. 

We get into his PACE framework, purpose, awareness, connection, and energy, as the real foundation for honest leadership, and why even CEOs secretly feel like frauds. 

We also talk about why work and personal life were never meant to be separated, and what it really takes to build a culture where people feel safe telling the truth. 

 When was the last time you told someone "I'm fine" when you really weren't? 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Yeah, that's a that's a big question. Um part of it is of course we don't want to see this. Uh part of it's fooling ourselves um because not admitting the problem, not seeing the truth is easier. I call it the ostrich effect. Like we we we put our hat in the sand because it's too painful. But that's too easy because just putting this at the individual person is too easy because I think it happens especially in organizations, even more so than when we do privately. And then the question is why is that? And I think that's because we have created organizations where this has become rational. It's rewarded and you're kind of punished if you are if you're honest and signaling the fire, because then you're the you're the person with the bad message. And that's especially like vertically, uh bad information traveling upwards is challenging in many organizations for many reasons. So, short answer is we have created systems organizations where um denying the fire has become the rational thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

All right. Welcome everybody back to the Sean Trace Show. I'm your host, Sean, and uh I have an awesome guest with me today. Can you tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Yes, of course. Um Jurunk Reinbrink. That's how you pronounce my name. I always get that question. Uh I'm a yeah, how do I call myself? Strategy and change expert. At least most of my career I spent on strategy, first in academia, then in in uh as consultant. And currently focusing much more on uh culture, change, behavior mindset, uh, especially like getting organizations more honest. But I'm thinking we will be talking uh a lot about that today.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Definitely. And honesty is a is a good thing. I have um a little uh last Christmas, my team members, my workers bought me this snow globe. But it's a snow globe with the house on fire, and you shake it up and it has little fire things, and across it says, I'm fine, everything is fine. And I love it because I would always send that to my team, that little picture of like the kid sitting in the fire going, everything's fine. And I I see so many people that do that every day. And I wanted to ask you this. My big question is why do so many leaders, people pretend everything is fine, even when things are clearly falling apart underneath?

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Yeah, that's a that's a big question. Um, part of it is, of course, we don't want to see this. Uh, part of it's fooling ourselves because not admitting the problem, not seeing the truth is easier. I call it the ostrich effect. Like we we put our head in the sand because it's too painful. But that's too easy because just putting this at the individual person is too easy because I think it happens especially in organizations, even more so than when we do privately. And then the question is why is that? And I think that's because we have created organizations where this has become rational. It's rewarded, and you're kind of punished if you are if you're honest and signaling the fire, because then you're the you're the person with the bad message. And that's especially like vertically, uh, bad information traveling upwards is challenging in many organizations for for many reasons. So, short answer is we have created systems organizations where um denying the fire has become the rational thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

It's interesting too, because I'm gonna tell you a secret right now. Um, tonight I'm not okay. I'm having a horrible, horrible allergy. I am super allergic to um poison oak and poison ivy. It's these plants that are in around the world, they're not fun. And uh living in Vietnam, I haven't had to deal with that at all, which is wonderful. Many years of not having any allergies. Uh, I did not know that cashews are a similar plant and similar plant family. And I ate cashews for a year without any problem, but I didn't realize that I was eating the cashews without the skin on them and they had been boiled and had the skin removed. And one day I was really hungry and I went by the store and I was like, oh, cashews. And I bought them and they had the skin on them. And um I ate the whole box. Now, what happened is I ingested all of those toxins that then began to work their way out through my skin as I sweat. And let's just say, over about 70% of my body right now, I have these, these itchy, itchy rashes. And it's from the the chemical Ursul. And uh, needless to say, today at work, I was sitting there and my team, one of my team members looked at me and she says, Are you okay? And for a second, I was like, Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. Of course, of course, of course I'm okay. And then a second later, I turned to her and I was like, you know what? I'm not okay. And she's like, Well, what can you do about that? And I was like, you know what? That's a great question. Because as I kept telling myself that I was okay, I wasn't looking for solutions to my problem. I just was sitting there trying to sit in it, right? And okay, it's okay, it's okay. But the second that I was like able to say, yeah, things are not right, my mindset shifted to, well, what's the solution for the problem that we're having? And I think that that's something that we we need to train ourselves to do more, you know?

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Yeah. For for that reason, because when once you admit, you can look for the truth. But the other reason is not saying it out loud or not admitting it kind of eats you from inside. It builds up tension, frustrations because you are performing, you're acting, you're not real, you're not yourself. And that I think when we do that year after year, decade after decade, uh, it builds up such tension that that's I think why you see so many uh so much stress, uh burnouts and all of that. Of course, that there's one reason is kind of pressure, is we have to work hard and there's KPIs and deadlines and so on. But I think the other reason is uh we have to pretend, we have to show up, we have to be strong, we have to be someone that we're not.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Right. Right. I I think that that's an interesting thing that you we all are required to be someone that we're not. And you know, and whether it be I had this guest came come on recently, and he was talking about how he was a business consultant for a major AI firm, one of the ones that we all hear about. And he says that he was in a meeting with that CEO, and the CEO had said, I need everyone out of the room. And the guy sort of walked into the room. He's like, No, you stay. And the guy, he's like, Oh, okay. And he stayed in the room, and the guy looked at me, he's like, I'm a fraud. And what? Like, fraudulent product? And he's like, no, no, I mean, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm overwhelmed. I I I have massive imposter syndrome. Like here I am running this huge company, and everyone's looking at me going, what's the next move they're gonna make? And he's like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

I don't know what the next move is that we're gonna make, you know?

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Exactly, exactly. And that's that's that's why I think the um the the honesty problem is is it's kind of exponentially uh getting worse when we're moving up the the hierarchy the hierarchy in in an organization. Because the higher you're you're in the hierarchy, and especially the bigger the company, the more we have created this kind of myth that that's the know-it-all person, the strong person. And of course, it part of it, yeah, you you have the responsibility. So it comes with kind of a heavy responsibility because you're responsible for for many people and their families and so on. Yeah. But you're a human being like everyone else. And CEO being a CEO does not give you any any superpowers. And you don't have any superpowers when you become a CEO. You're good at some job, but you're still like 99% like everyone else. So you have your anxieties, you have your uncertainties, you have your stress, and that's making that um acceptable, normal. Um think yeah, uh the other people had to leave the room, right? So it's it it had to be a secret. Uh and that's yeah, and the the interesting thing is um we have created this, or this not not on purpose, I think, but quite substantially quite systematically over the years. But it's not good for people, it's not good for organizations. So then you can and when you're really dig into it like I've done and and think about it, it really becomes amazing. Like, why are we doing this? Who is this for? It's not good for for anyone, um, but we can't get out of it because it has become kind of the norm, it's it's a systemic thing, it's not just we can't just replace the leader. Uh that's an important thing, of course. The leader at the top has the most um the most impact on this. But the the solution is not replacing the leader, because if the system works in a way, the industry works in a way, uh it's it's just the way things are done. And that that's uh that's a big thing. But that's that's the work I'm I'm trying to do is is um get some improvements there. And and even though that's of course slow, um, I think it's crucial because we we see we see the problems everywhere, uh and I think increasingly. And yeah, so that's also why I moved from initially it did mostly strategy work, so helping companies develop strategy, implement strategy, uh, then moved more to change, um, and then kind of reflecting on my own work, uh, being being honest with myself and what am I doing? Am I really helping those companies? Kind of. Uh I wouldn't I wouldn't uh downplay uh my work. I think I've done a good job as a strategy consultant, helping companies. But have I really addressed the most important problems? Probably not. And that's that's what I focus on now is kind of getting more honesty within uh organizations where honesty, and I think that's important to emphasize, it does not mean uh the absence of lying. That's that's just kind of the the very surface of it. Honesty means being authentic, being your true self, and I mean true with a small T, because every we're all we're all kind of completely socially constructed, but being true to yourself, it also means um being dependable, um showing compassion, showing empathy. So it's a very rich concept, and I think that's the part we have kind of systematically been removing in organizations through the way we manage it, and even by the very fact that we kind of split between work and private, which also, if you think about that, it's it's it's odd. It's it's it's not normal. Because if you look at the the history of people, uh this is kind of a recent invention where work and pri and and and private was kind of separated since the kind of the industrial revolution made mainly there were work was another place, so you went there and over the last century we have kind of completely split between the two, while for hundreds of thousands of years, uh and for every any other species, work is life, life is work. And somehow we have created that that tension where we are one person at home, we are the other person at work. Uh and I think my hypothesis is the bigger the tension between those, the bigger the gap, the more problems you have. Uh, because you it's very hard to sustain, to play a very different role. And of course, I'm not too naive here. It's that you can be everywhere, you can be truly just yourself, whoever that is. But the tension and the difference, I think, has become far too too large to be healthy. Again, healthy for the people and healthy for organizations.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

It's interesting too, because you know, one of the things that you pointed out there that I really am interested in is honesty. You talk a lot about honesty, especially honesty inside organizations. It was interesting. I was hiring for an executive assistant. I finally found my current executive assistant who is absolutely amazing. And it was uh a long journey to find her. But when I went to hire, there was an interesting phenomenon that happened. I interviewed, um, I set up eight interviews. Eight. And all of them, and this is after screening a bunch of people online, uh, you know, preliminary, like talk, tell me, show me your CV. And we had eight people come in for, we had eight people plan to come in for interviews. And uh six of them told me they were in the hospital the day of their interview. And six of them used six used the hospital, and people were sending photos, sending this and that. And I was like, that's six, six, six people were, and I said, and I turned and I was like thinking about it, and I was like, there were six people who realized this was not a job they wanted. It was that simple, but yet they did not know how to say, this isn't what I want. Like, and make it very simple and clear, and just no, if someone tells me that I go, okay, I'm glad that you realize that. You know, I'm glad that we can see that clearly. Just tell me. Just tell me. But you talk about this honesty. Why is telling the truth at work so hard for people?

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah, because we've made it so hard. Right. Like, like, yeah, and and uh as as I said in the beginning, we we it has become rational not to be honest, because I think part of it's part of it is kind of we suspect other people to to talk badly about us or to laugh about us. So it's probably just kind of the the social anxiety that's kind of that that we have. But part of it is also actually evidence that you'd rather not be honest. Like I think many people recognize that they have signaled some problem at some point in their career, and then either it got ignored or they got punished for it. They got kind of because they were kind of the the messengers, the messenger with the with the bad news. Yeah. And this was not appreciated because someone else felt threatened uh personally, they took it personally. So and and but also that I think it's not the not any specific person in an organization or or their their bad character. It's just they have grew they they grew up in that same organization where it has become yeah, very, very difficult to be transparent, to be honest, to be uh to be yourself. And and part of it is also kind of um kind of removing variety, heterogeneity, differences. We we look for um similarity, similar people like us, we hire uh people that are like us, uh, and that makes it very hard to stand out. What I found, and this is of course very, very old, but if you look at um the origin of McKinsey, um and kind of what what what they wanted was basically young men wearing a black suit, black suit and a black hat. For the rest, like robots, they were trained in the same method and they should be completely replaceable. They were just like part of a machine. So part of it is the metaphor we're using for organizations, is as a machine where every part should be replaceable. There's a function, there's a role. You should you are that function, you are that role, and for the rest, who you are, what you bring in, what your character is, what your taste is, that's kind of forgotten, ignored, uh, or kind of squeezed out of you or not allowed because you have, and of course, I'm I'm exaggerating a bit here because there's organizations where uh you can truly much more be yourself and be different. But I think that those are also more of the organizations that do pretty well, even though they're uh that part can be acceptable or appreciated, but still telling some people higher up the truth could still be very difficult there. So there's different aspects of being honest, uh which I've kind of summarized in in a simple framework uh with the acronym PACE, purpose, awareness, connection, and energy. Um, and for me, those are the conditions for honesty. Like if if you are so part of part of it starts with, and then interrupt me if I'm giving too long answers.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

No, I shouldn't. I'm so getting this up. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah. So because purpose is, of course, there's a lot of talk about purpose, about missions, visions in the past, and then to the the why and the golden circle, and and purpose and all of that. Um, but a large part of that is pretty much a fiction because it's it's kind of a tick box where okay, we need a purpose, so we write a purpose, we have a mission statement, we put it on our website, it's not real. If you want people to be honest, the first thing you want is actual purpose, where what people care about matches what the organization cares about. Because to be honest, you require often a little bit of courage, sometimes a lot of courage, and the only place where you or the only reason to show that courage is that you really care about an organization. So that's the purpose part. The awareness part is to be truthful, to be honest, you actually have to be aware of what's going on. Uh and that starts with self-awareness. There's so many people that I see that that show little self-awareness. They have and and increasingly so. There's so much kind of bubbles, biases, and blind spots where where people kind of have a narrow-minded view where they think they're right and everyone else is wrong, and you get the polarization and the camps and the conflicts and all of that, uh, not just online, but in the real world as well. So awareness means being aware of your own limitations, your uh your weak points, also being aware of the other. Uh, so you need to be aware of what's going on in the world. Because how can you be honest and truthful if you have no clue? So that's that's awareness. Right. Connection means um, so this is becoming a little bit of a lecture. Uh connection means you have to be connected to other people because if you don't trust them, how can you be honest? And I think this is what we see that so that in organizations, if we want to kind of split it into horizontal and vertical, horizontal we often have silos where by design, where each department has their own their own kind of little kingdom, and there's little communication in between, little connection in between, uh, but vertically especially. Like, is there dialogue? Is there trust? Uh so how do you establish true connection, true relationships? Because when there's a true relationship, it's so much easier to um for say the truth to to travel, especially bad news. Um, like like if the two of us, if we don't trust each other, it's very hard for me to give you candid feedback and the same away, the same way. So, how can I be honest with you if I don't trust you? If if I kind of suspect that you will be doing something harmful with the information I'm giving you. So that's connection, and the last one is energy, which basically means your your physical and mental health is how if you're in the if you're literally in the hospital, uh, or if you're feeling bad, if you have severe overweight, um physical problems, mental problems, stress, how can you show up honestly at work? You can't, because you're you're hiding that, you're struggling with it. Um so that's those are kind of four basic conditions uh for uh I think for for honesty and also for flourishing organizations. So that's what my work is is very much about. Like, how do we create organizations where pace, where purpose awareness, connection, and energy is is kind of the norm, the default rather than the exception? And that starts typically with top leadership. Uh like how how are they doing on these on these four aspects?

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Right. It's interesting too, because if you don't have a the culture being set by whoever the top leadership by um if you don't have it set by people that you want setting it, it's still gonna get set, but it might not be what you want, you know? And I I was a a children's teacher for many years, and I recognize this last year my daughter's school. Uh, her class has had a lot of problems, like a lot of problems. And it was interesting because there was something that I was like talking to my wife about, and I said, her class has a fundamental problem. And I said, and she's like, Well, what is that? I said, the teacher's not studying the culture, and the culture's being created by the kids right now. And she's like, Well, what do you mean? And I said, Because um I don't know what it was going on, but there was one young boy who was acting out very badly, very in the beginning of the year, who was hitting, and there was a lot of physical intimidation toward the other kids. And the teacher didn't do anything about it. It was like, let's let him, let's tell him not to do that. And it continued. And then finally, the other kids were like, She's not gonna protect us. We're gonna take it into our own hands. And there was suddenly because they didn't feel safe and they created a culture that they felt safe. And what that was is that they banded together and started bullying uh the kid really aggressively, and it was not good. And it was just this spiral. And I looked at my wife and I said, How many companies are like this as well? That there is something that happens and people don't have the clarity. And then that's where coming from my daughter, my daughter then asked me, Dad, well, what can we do? And I said, you know, well, I said, you know, and I was like, that's a great question. And like it led me to to think about this question that I wanted to ask you. Like, what makes someone a real leader? You know, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_03 23:41

In in this particular case, I I I wouldn't directly know, but in general, I think it's it's really kind of listen to your heart um and and be honest. I think that's and and care about the people around you. And I think in that that's when you're a teacher in front of a class or a CEO of a large corporate, I think that's what this is all about. You show up as you uh and care about the people. And if those are in place, uh, and I can again kind of refer to to the to the framework, but uh live your purpose, uh, develop your awareness, uh, connect to people and make sure you bring energy into the room. And then it doesn't really matter what exactly you're doing. I think then when you're bringing yourself as a strong, as an authentic, strong presence, it will work. People people respond to that, they see it, they love to be connected and listen to people like that. Uh you could you can you could you could you could call that charismatic leadership, but it's kind of too making it too magical and and for the just a lucky few, and as if you're born as being a charismatic leader. But this is something you can learn. You can you can you can work on that uh as a teacher, as a as a CEO, as a team leader, as a middle manager. Uh so it's a very in essence, a very simple thing. Uh it's it's be you, know yourself, uh, and actually care about the people, try to help them because that's what you do as a leader is to kind of look at the people you're leading and try to help them in a way that they can flourish, that they can do the work they they they they should be doing, that they can develop, that they can grow, that they can be honest, that they can share things, that they can connect. Uh so be be a good be a be a good person. That's kind of the uh the very oversimplified answer to your uh to your question.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Be a good person. I it's I think it's not oversimplified though. It is the most essential, beautiful answer you can have. At the end of the day, to be a great leader, you have to be a human being that people want to be led by. You have to be someone that they're willing to follow. I um when I was a younger, my dad was the type who showed me how to lead from the front, who that if he there was someone who had a problem, he would offer his shirt, he would offer his shoes, he would, you know, he would go barefoot if he had to, so that someone around him would be okay. And I try to bring that into what I do. And recently I had one of my workers tell me, he turned to me, and he said, Mr. Sean, I think you are a genuinely good human being. And I was like, I hope that's a good thing. I hope that's a good thing, man. And he's like, you know, you every day you try to do this, and like you care about us. You know, you care about our. I do a lot of video content for people. And I recently fired a client. And people said, Why, why would you do that? You know, uh, because they mistreated my staff. They mistreated my team. They were calling, they were swearing, they were belittling. And I was like, it's funny because I live in Vietnam and I have a team that's mainly Vietnamese, and they just go, Oh, well, other, they can other people, right? The girl, the the young woman who was their uh the editor working on that project, is about ready to begin her uh master's degree in London next year on feminism and colonial studies. She's hands down one of the smartest people I know. She just happens to have worked with me before and for the time being, wants to learn a little bit about how to make visual content. That's it. Yet she is an absolute masterclass of amazingness and awesomeness all rolled up into one human being who wants to make a huge impact. And when I had people that were mistreating her, I said, I don't want you anywhere near my team and my people. Unacceptable. Unacceptable, because for me, that is a person who is, I am, I am blessed to have that person join me and my team for a period of time. And I think that if that's what you call being a good human, then count me in. Count me in.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Yeah, definitely. And and that means um I think this is a great example because what you what your client did was not showing respect, um and and reducing someone to a role or a position or a function or or a robot who has to deliver something. And I think this is where you see the the best signals in an organization. Like how do people treat uh others in the lower ranks? Because it's easy to show to pretend respect to people above you, but the real respect is respect is a human thing. It's it should not relate to whatever people's job is. So it's how do you treat uh the the person at the reception? How do you treat the conjuge? How do you how do you treat anyone? Uh be are that's the big that's the good test. Like if you're a good leader, if you're a good CO, you treat everyone in your company well. Uh and yeah, so again, it's it's it's almost too simple to say out aloud out out aloud. Um, but it's amazing that this is not the default in many cultures, uh, because I've seen so many leaders and and not just at the top, but maybe even especially kind of one level down, yeah, where uh kind of being um what is it disrespectful to others is kind of the norm. And talking about other people, like I'm currently in a fascinating, I'm I'm actually not certain whether I'm still with that company as a client because they kind of fired me. Because I was, as you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm I pay a lot of attention to truth. So when you work with me, be aware, the truth gets on the table. Uh and very often that has something to do with the leaders at the top. Um so if you're open to that, then that's the kind of work I do. But this leader was so far into his kind of defensive ego castle that when I came up with a very clear diagnosis, like I like I talked to 25-30 people in his organization with very clear single conclusion is that you're a problem. Uh so and that person, uh, I think it was a pretty extreme example. He became very aggressive with me uh for kind of calling me all kind of bad things. But the point is that person was not at all respectful for other people, very much based on position, on playing the uh the CEO role and and trying to suck up with the owner, trying to kind of downplay, uh divide and conquer, uh, keep information um away from people, promise them one thing in a one-on-one, and then completely forgot in another meeting. And I've I've even noticed that myself a couple of times. Then we we talked about something, we agreed on something, and then somehow it was completely forgotten, um erased, uh, kind of, and then you start kind of thinking like, am I crazy?

unknown 31:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Is this is this me? Did I really kind of make this up? No, but I'm I'm quite sure, I'm sure I'm I did not make it up. So that's I think it shows yeah, being respectful, uh being caring about other people, helping them once more with uh purpose awareness, connection, energy. I think if that's what you can do as a leader, you're creating great cultures. And and then it doesn't matter, I think, what the product is, what the company is, what the industry is, even what the country and the culture is, uh, I think that's a pretty universal thing we we need and we want as people. And and you're you're saying you work in Vietnam, so it's a very different culture than than Europe, than the US. This is universal. People work harder and are motivated and are more honest if there's a clear purpose. Uh if they are aware, if if they uh they kind of know themselves, if they are uh aware of the needs and of other people, they will do better. If there's strong relations, relationships, they will do better. And if they bring energy into the room and are healthy, they will do better. So this is this kind of universal uh conditions.

unknown 32:51

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

It's so interesting too, because one of the things that I I remember a story a while back. I was in um working in Hollywood, and there was this salon that I worked at as a hair salon, and um the this one lady came in and she looked like a bum. She had beat-up pants, blue jeans, and a beat-up shirt, and uh all of the um all of the work, the stylists and the hairstylists, and this was a very posh place, very high-end. And like, I was like, hey, uh, because I was working the reception at that time. And I was like, anybody want to work on this lady? She seems like a lovely, nice human being who needs to get her hair done. And no one, no, no, I'm busy, I'm busy. I'm like, you're you're standing there just doing nothing. What do you mean you're busy? Well, I I have I have more going on right now that I need to take care of. They weren't, they just didn't think that she was worth their time. There was this guy, Craig, and I said, Craig, are you able or willing to work on this person? He was like, sure, bring him over. Craig was probably one of the nicest, most genuine people I met that I, especially at work there. Worked on her, did she needed a full cleanup, she got all done up, and then she walked in and she pulled out this business suit that she had carried with her. No one saw it. And my boss came running in. He's she's like, Sean, did you take care of her? I said, That yeah, I got her in with Craig. And she's like, Oh my goodness, she's like one of the studio heads here in Los Angeles. And I was like, and I was just like, Oh wow, well, yeah, she came in. She said she needed, she just flew in and needed someone to help her out. And I said, and no one wanted to help her. And she was like, Well, who helped her? I said, Craig. She's like, Thank goodness. And she kept coming back. She was a regular after that. But no one was willing. It was like that undercover boss type of a thing. Everyone was like looking at her and said, Well, it's not worth my time. And I think that what's what's interesting is the person who truly was successful was the one who was like willing to take it no matter what. You know.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Again, another example of showing respect to people, irrespective of position, because there were all kinds of prejudice that this woman uh was kind of unacceptable, or I don't know. We have so much prejudice there. I think that's the awareness part, is kind of be open uh and and don't assume things. Uh be aware of your own biases in this case. Like the bias here was she's not she's she's looking, she's looking in a certain way, so not worth our attention. Which yeah, it's it's if you think about it, it of course it's it's on one hand, it's a natural thing. We we always kind of categorize other people and there's us and them, and that's kind of a but it's not a good thing. And I think in organizations, um yeah, we we we we can work on that. We we can reduce that, we can improve that.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Right. I want to ask you a question because why do some leaders look successful on the outside but feel exhausted or empty on the inside?

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Yeah, it's it's once more it's it's it's the performance we ask for. And that performance, I find it a beautiful word because it's there's so much emphasis on performance, like key performance indicators and so on. But performance also is uh you're talking about Hollywood, it's kind of acting, it's performing as if pretending. And I think that's what um part of it is because our m of our measure of success is is is is off. Because what is successful, having a lot of money, being able to spend that's kind of the the shortest summary of being successful nowadays, right? Earning a lot of money, having a lot of power, uh which is also if you think about that, why is that a measure of success? So it's the the label of what we're what we call successful is completely off. For me, successful means is someone flourishing? Uh it's a bit vaguer as a term than um do you how much money do you make and how many cars do you have? What's the size of your house, how many pools do you have, and so on, and how many diamonds. Uh but that's that's what life is about. It's about flourishing. Literally, what life is about. If you look in nature, if you look at what when are you successful, if you're kind of thrilled, if you're energized, if you are happy, that should be successful. Uh so I think it's the measure of success that's the problem here. And because that's the measure of success, that's what leaders are focusing on. Um, because that's the social norm, the societal norm, it's the the business norm. Uh and of course, of course you're exhausted, of course you're empty, because no one really cares about that. Um because it's not it's not part of uh part of life. Of course, it's a condition, and and of course the other side having no money, being completely powerless, uh that's that's a that's a problem. But it's a hygiene condition. Like up to a up to a certain level, when you have enough to have your house, have your uh have your food, have your clothes, and so on, then it's enough. And above and beyond, it's about once more these these four, are you living your purpose? Yes. Are you kind of aware of kind of being also kind of how are you doing on the spiritual side? How are you how are you doing mentally? How are you doing in your social relationships? How are you doing energetically, physically? Uh so the measure of success is is completely off uh where it's I think not more than logical that we are exhausted and empty, because it's an it's an it's it's an exhausting and an empty measure of success.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Yes. One of the things that I look at is that um I have a podcast on personal finance called Growing Money with Sean Trace. And the podcast is not how to get rich. The podcast is how to grow your resources and know when enough is enough and what your enough is, you know, because it's like at the end of the day, you can chase more. The worst thing, the most annoying thing for me in the world is when I do a video edit for a client and they come back and they say, I want more. I was like, Well, more what? I want more, I want it to be better. Better? Like, where do we go with that? Like how? What exactly? Well, I like this whoosh whoosh sound. Okay, now we can do whoosh sounds. That's easy. Well, I I I want my voice sounds a little funny. Okay, well, you recorded with a bad microphone, but we can throw it through some different like processes to clean that up a little bit. Yep, there we go. Oh, that's that's it. Okay, well, those were quantifiable things. And then now are you happy? Totally happy. There's their enough. Now they're not going up here because they don't need to hit up here, you know. And I think that for everyone, you have to know what your enough is. I don't want to be Elon Musk. I think that, you know, that level of drive and singular focus would make me go crazy. And I want to have enough that I could go upstairs every single night and watch movies with my daughter. That that is my long-term goal. That I can go and just have movie time all the time and have fun with that. That's what life is about, right? Right. And what do you think? Um, for people that are are listening and want to sit there and go, you know, I want to fix things for myself. I want to have more peace. I want to be a better leader. Where do you think people should start with trying to find their next step?

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Um pause for a while. That's that's the the the the most important thing. Whereas we're we're living in such a rushed society. Um, I'm not saying that things are going faster than ever. And so maybe they are, but that's kind of a uh a human truth for like 5,000 years already. Is that where we're thinking everyone's everything is going faster and faster? But we live in a rushed life. It's we don't take any uh time to reflect. Maybe a little sidestep here. This is what I um, because I've been here as well, and then I wrote a couple of years ago, I wrote a book called No More Bananas, uh, where it refers to don't go bananas. Uh, and the subtitle is maybe more uh revealing. It's how to keep your cool in the collective madness. And for me, and that's the way I work, I write things down, and if it's interesting enough, I I turn it into a book. But that was literally my self-help um moment, or a little bit more than a moment, uh, a couple of months. Um I needed to kind of slow down, not switch off, but to kind of calm, relax, kind of recalibrate. And that has become this book with kind of nine steps and 45 tips and tricks and remedies to to do that. Like how do you kind of keep your cool in a collective manner? And I think that's that's the starting point. Is it's it's kind of reserve time for yourself to reflect, to reflect on on what you're doing. Uh kind of uh and and some that this these are very some of them are very simple things, like like switch off some notifications from your phone, or give yourself uh uh restricted uh mobile time per day, or or for social media, or just take five-minute breaks three times a day. That kind of stuff, that's the awareness part. Um, I think that's the starting point. Um, because we live so much in kind of automatic mode, where we just do what we're doing every day, where we do what we're supposed to do, where we buy what we're supposed to buy, where we perform as we are supposed to perform. Um well, and if we if we listen to ourselves uh and reflect on ourselves and and think about am I actually doing okay? Do I like this? That's that's the starting point. I think when that awareness is there, from there on you can you can achieve great things. But that that little starting with a little a little bit time for yourself and reflect reflective time, I think that's the that's the one thing where you where you would need to start.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I love that. Well, I want to ask you a question. Where can people go to find out more about you and what you do?

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Yes. Uh one thing, if you spell my name correctly, whatever you do, you'll find me. There's just one uh Jerunkrayenbrink that's spelled like this. Um probably three places to go. One is my website, which is jerunkrayenbrink.com, firstlame last name.com. Um, LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. Um so if you want to follow me, just search my name and you'll see the picture and you'll recognize uh me. And on Amazon, if you want to buy my books, there's uh I think six of them right now. And again, if you just search my name, you'll find my books and you can uh you can buy them, including the Nomer Bananas or and the strategy books. That's the little promo uh part, but that's how you find me. Just type my name wherever and you'll uh you'll learn a lot about uh what I do.